An author and journalist from New York has made headlines by releasing audio recordings that shed light on the close relationship Donald Trump allegedly had with Jeffrey Epstein, a connection Trump has repeatedly denied.
The tapes were shared as part of the “Fire and Fury” podcast series, created by Michael Wolff—known for his three books on Trump’s presidency—and James Truman, a former journalist at NME and the editorial director at Condé Nast.
These recordings contain Epstein’s insights into the inner workings of Trump’s White House and offer a glimpse into their personal association.
According to Wolff, the recordings were made during a discussion with Epstein in 2017, when Epstein was considering writing a biography.
Epstein died by suicide in 2019 while awaiting trial for s_x trafficking. Despite his criminal activities, Epstein remained well-connected among the elite in both the United States and internationally, mingling with several prominent personalities.
Wolff claims that the released excerpt represents just a small portion of “around 100 hours of Epstein speaking about the dynamics of the Trump White House and his deep, long-standing relationship with Donald Trump.”
Back in 2002, Trump had openly praised Epstein in an interview with New York magazine, referring to him as “a terrific guy” and hinting at Epstein’s preference for younger women.
However, Trump later asserted that the two had a falling-out long before Epstein’s 2008 conviction for soliciting prostitution in Florida.
“I was not a fan of his, that I can tell you,” Trump said after Epstein was arrested on federal s_x trafficking charges in 2019.
The “Fire and Fury” tapes provide a look into Epstein’s view of how Trump manipulated those in his inner circle, playing them against one another. Epstein recounted, “His people fight each other and then he poisons the well outside.”
The tapes mention some of Trump’s close aides—Steve Bannon, Reince Priebus, and Kellyanne Conway—whom Trump allegedly used to keep his power dynamic similar to that of a competitive royal court.
Epstein described how Trump would sow discord by sharing disparaging remarks about them to others. He would tell multiple people that “Bannon’s a sc_umbag,” “Priebus is not doing a good job,” or “Kellyanne has a big mouth—what do you think?”
Trump also mentioned supposed opinions of other influential figures. For example, “[JPMorgan Chase CEO] Jamie Dimon says that you’re a problem and I shouldn’t keep you. And I spoke to [financier] Carl Icahn, and Carl thinks I need a new spokesperson.”
Epstein also elaborated on Trump’s tactics in handling Kellyanne Conway. Despite hiring her husband, Trump supposedly saw Kellyanne as a “wildcard.” He then went on to tell Steve Bannon, “You know, I really want to keep you, but Kellyanne hates you.”
After the podcast aired, Karoline Leavitt, the national press secretary for Trump’s campaign, responded strongly, accusing Wolff of being a “disgraced writer” who “routinely fabricates lies in order to sell fiction books because he clearly has no morals or ethics.”
She also alleged that Wolff was spreading “outlandish false smears” and accused him of engaging in “blatant election interference on behalf of Kamala Harris.”
Wolff further stated in the podcast that Epstein had viewed him as an “outlet” to express his disbelief at how someone whose “sins he knew so well” could end up being elected president. “Epstein was utterly preoccupied with Trump,” Wolff said, “and I think, frankly, afraid of him.”
Wolff aims to illustrate the connection between two wealthy figures from the 1980s, whose primary interests were wealth, women, and social status. He portrays how Trump and Epstein socialized together during that period in New York.
According to The Guardian, Epstein had, in 1993, brought his girlfriend at the time, Stacey Williams—a Sports Illustrated model—to Trump’s penthouse on Fifth Avenue.
There, Epstein allegedly allowed or even encouraged Trump to grope her, which Williams later described as a “twisted game.”
Discussing this further on the podcast, Wolff noted, “Here are these two guys, both driven by a need to do anything they wanted with women: dominance, submission, and entertainment.
And one of them ends up in the darkest prison in the country, while the other ends up in the White House.”
